The Business Journal recently gathered five top women real estate executives for a discussion on how they operate in the male-dominated industry. The panelists were:

? Ellen Bellandi, a partner at the Real Estate Capital Group, a West Los Angeles real estate investment firm. She has 20 years of experience in real estate, mostly in finance, including management of First Nationwide Bank’s commercial real estate loan portfolio for Southern California.

? Kathy Delgado, who handles leasing and marketing for Kilroy Realty Corp., a Los Angeles-based real estate investment trust and one of the most active developers in Southern California.

? Susan Goodman, a vice president and top tenant broker at Cresa Partners, who has 20 years of real estate experience and is a founding member of Commercial Real Estate Women (CREW-Los Angeles).

? Robin Jordan, president of the Real Estate Group, an Inglewood-based property management firm she started last year. She has 20 years of real estate experience at such companies as Pinnacle Realty Management Co., Charles Dunn Co. and Coast Federal Bank.

? Christine Meyer, vice president of investments for Trammell Crow Co., where she helps run the J.P. Morgan portfolio, including the Century Plaza twin towers. Before that, she was vice president of acquisitions for Lowe Enterprises Inc., where she was responsible for underwriting more than $1 billion of transactions throughout the country.

Elizabeth Hayes

LABJ: How close to reality is the stereotype of brokers being men who are USC graduates, drive a Mercedes and belong to the Jonathan Club? And how do you think things have changed?

Delgado: When I first joined Kilroy, I was the only female executive and I was, I guess, a token. But I’ve proven myself. It’s taken a long time, but now there is respect and opportunity. I have two phenomenal men who have been fantastic mentors in my life. But I think as women, we all know it takes twice as long to go through that proving time.

Bellandi: And three times as much work.

Meyer: I think in general, women, compared with their male counterparts, are technically as astute and work as hard, but they are judged harsher about how effective they are.

LABJ: How is that reflected?

Goodman: Compensation.

Bellandi: It’s harder to get promoted and when you are, you’re not promoted to executive vice president, for example. You’re two rungs under.

Goodman: I’ve had directors of corporate real estate tell me there’s no question I could do the job, but if something goes wrong, they’re going to say, “How come you used that woman at this non-brand-name company?” If the deal goes great, it’s not a problem. There are certain companies I’ve learned I’ll never get a deal from, and that’s OK. But there are other ones I will.

LABJ: Why did you get into this industry in the first place, realizing it’s very male-dominated?

Meyer: I was interested in three basic things real estate, Wall Street and being an entrepreneur. I started with a gentleman, just a wild guy, who was an engineer, contractor, syndicator. He had six daughters and he loved women, thought they were more effective, they were detail-oriented and got the job done. Then I went to work on the institutional side.

Goodman: I came out here from New York and I was working for accounting firms. They thought women should be in the back office, doing the bookkeeping, and I just had too much of a personality, I was too outgoing. I saw this little blurb in the paper for a property manager and I got the job running two floors at 1888 Century Park East. I met people from Grubb & Ellis and Coldwell Banker and they said, “You should go into commercial real estate.” I was going to be 30 and I realized my knight in shining armor might have come and gone several times, and I knew I needed to support myself and I thought commercial real estate would be a good vehicle. I had no idea what it entailed. My benchmark was, if I could make more on commission than I could on a salaried job, I would stay, and if I couldn’t, I could always do accounting. And 23 years later, here I am. There have been ups and downs, but it’s been an interesting ride.

LABJ: Can you go back to your beginnings in the industry and what some of your initial reactions were to the guys’ club and fitting in, and compare that to today?

Delgado: I grew up in an environment where I wasn’t taught to be intimidated by men, so when I first broke into the business, I was very comfortable sitting across from the CEO of a company. When I was in the business longer and I started seeing how people were treating the women and treating me, I felt challenged challenged to overcome, to make them respect what I had to bring to the table. And I think as you go through your career and you have some things under your belt that enable you to gain that confidence, your outlook is just different.

LABJ: “Challenged” is a diplomatic word. Were you ticked, frustrated, angry?

Delgado: Oh sure, of course. There will be certain individuals who will be intimidated by strong women, by women who aren’t intimidated.

Goodman: It’s the old story: men can be aggressive but the woman is a bitch.

Bellandi: Exactly.

Goodman: You’d think that women in business would be supportive of other women, but sometimes there’s that threat that goes on even among women in positions of authority. If I’m cold-calling a company and there’s a woman, my first reaction is, “Oh good, this is going to be easier,” and sometimes it’s harder.

You’re right, if men have had daughters that have come through the ranks, they appreciate and understand it more. In sales, it’s the same. The good ol’ boys network today is still the way it was in the 1970s, and you just have to go in there and strap ’em on like the guys and go for it and not be intimidated by it. I think some men try to intimidate women and see if they’re going to take it.

Delgado: You adapt your attitude because you can’t change it. I’m tenacious as hell and very opinionated but I never lose sight of the fact that when I’m sitting in a room full of men, I’m a woman and I don’t try to be anything other than that.

Bellandi: I think that is very critical. I’ve been in the business since 1979, primarily corporate real estate, running departments and divisions, lending and doing equity deals. It is a little different in an institutional environment. It’s not as overt and it’s much more soft-spoken. But I have never worried about that in my entire career, being discriminated against or intimidated.

When we started, there were maybe two or three women lenders. And I was lucky enough to have a male mentor who ran the division who liked women. I ended up running joint ventures for Crocker Bank. And I did the Wells Fargo Tower, which was Crocker tower downtown, with (developer Robert) Maguire, and had quite a few high-powered, joint-venture deals.

Goodman: You have to play the game and know how to speak and sort of be a chameleon.

LABJ: How do you do that?

Goodman: Knowing when to speak up, when not to, knowing when to bring a male counterpart to a meeting if you feel there’s going to be resistance. I think it’s really good to have a male-female team because there are some men who like to deal with women and some who don’t.

LABJ: So after you’re in the business a number of years, you get to know the players and what their expectations might be.

Jordan: A lot of it is confidence. I know in the early ’80s, I went to Coast and I was running the corporate facilities area and I had to go to all these executive committee meetings and they didn’t want me there. I worked for a senior (executive) who really wanted to promote me and said, “They don’t want you there, they don’t feel they can be themselves. They don’t feel they can talk the way they want to talk about women and all the little derogatory comments.” But he said, “I want you there and I think it will be good for you.” After a while, they cared about what I said and took my recommendations.

It was really, really good for me and I got a lot of exposure and then while I was doing that, I went through school and got my MBA. They had a joint-venture subsidiary and they just hired a new president and they said, “We’d like you to go over there and be a project manager.” I went over there to interview with him and he ended up interviewing me for his secretary (laughter). I was so furious. I left there and I went right to the top of the company and said, “Did you send me over there to be a secretary?” They said, “No, we sent you over there to be a project manager and that’s where you’re going.” And I went and I had a terrible time. I just bit my tongue and did my job because none of the guys would have anything to do with me.

Delgado: So there was a male mentor in your life? Was there one in yours?

Meyer: I think you have a male mentor just because there aren’t any women. I don’t think it’s sex-specific because I’ve had women bosses that are excellent too.

Jordan: When some women get in certain positions, you don’t really see them bringing that many women along behind them. I don’t know if it’s a threatening thing or if it’s like, “I’ve made it and I’m special and I’m going to be here by myself,” and I think that’s really unfortunate.

Bellandi: I always preferred bringing women along because they work harder, doing three jobs compared with one job of a guy, and are more detail-oriented. They could spell when they did a loan write-up.

Delgado: We have the ability of doing many different tasks at once, very effectively. We just dive in when we see something needs to be done.

Meyer: We could change the fax paper (laughter).

Bellandi: Exactly. So I always tried to have more women than men if I could and also was very cognizant of being a mentor to the young women because really, who’s going to do it for them? The few who are at that level should try to help other women get there.

Jordan: I think we need more women and it will happen over time. As far as middle and upper middle and even senior level, we’re pretty much there, we’re accepted. An awful lot of my clients are women and I started noticing that five or six years ago. I thought, this is great. More and more people I’m doing business with are women and it made it much easier for me. But at the very top executive level and director level, there are very few women. Over time, that will change. Women in general will have more credibility in the business world and in real estate.

Goodman: I think that unfortunately, when we started in the ’70s, women went to the extreme, where we really had to be the ball busters and had to be tough. Then we got comfortable in our own skin. But it took men to understand that women weren’t out to get their jobs, we just wanted to have a place and a job and be an equal. We didn’t want to be better, but we had to prove we were better, work harder. That’s the common theme.

LABJ: Do you find you’re still doing that?

Delgado: The core people who run my company are great mentors. There are other men at our company who are equal who just make my life miserable because they’re threatened. When I step outside my company and represent Kilroy at a meeting, I hit the same wall all over again, because they don’t know me, all they see is a female. I just want to get to a point where I walk into a meeting and I’m not the only female so when a copy is needed, they don’t all look at me.

Bellandi: My last joint-venture deal, this attorney was there and I go walking by and he was at a secretary’s desk and he said, “Oh, am I at your desk?” I started laughing and walked into the meeting and when he came in, I think he was just appalled. When I joined the firm I’m in now, I had to prove myself all over again because I was just a banker. Never mind I’ve done $8 billion worth of real estate deals. All the men we do our equity deals with are rich, but none of them can do a pro forma, read a computer run or structure a deal.

Goodman: You’re always proving yourself a little bit in every situation, every company I cold call or talk to. I’m obviously not tall in stature and I come into a meeting and they look around and want to know where this booming-voiced person is. You can tell by the way we’re all dressed, we’re all very conservative. We dress for the part. We learn how to talk, you learn how to play the game.

LABJ: Are there certain sectors in which women have made more inroads than others within real estate?

Jordan: I think property management has been a much easier road for women. I don’t think there’s a lot of barriers there. Women do a very good job at property management because they can juggle a lot of different things and can adjust their personalities easily to deal with different clients and situations.

Meyer: I somewhat disagree because I think what happens is, women get shoved into property management. They get to a certain level and they’re not handling big amounts of money, dealing with the clients, so they don’t get the promotions. They do the detail work, they make the company run, but they do not get the corporate positions.

Delgado: When we went public a few years ago, I was in leasing and I was asked to take a position that was more of a traditional female role to handle property management. I prefer the brokerage end. I wanted more challenges. Fortunately, the president of our company believed in my capability and the fact I can tell people to shove it and all those wonderful things you have to tell people in our business.

LABJ: What are the prospects of reaching that top level when the old boy’s network permeating your industry?

Delgado: I think at some point you will. Anything is possible with tenacity and diligence. I think as we were saying earlier, it will just take women three times as long.

Goodman: And they may come from another industry.

Meyer: The most exciting thing I’ve seen in real estate is a switching of the capital sources, like the pension fund groups that have sheriffs and policemen, and Wall Street firms that have women in them. That’s very positive. I’ve seen that at a couple of companies, where they want to have visible women.

Goodman: Do they really want them or do they want them because it’s politically correct?

Meyer: They want them because the client wants them because that’s who they feel comfortable doing business with. It’s how their internal politics work and that’s what they want in their service providers. I think they get tired of white male marketing guys nonstop and you’re looking to differentiate yourself.

LABJ: The heavyweights in the industry, as they’re perceived, they’re really a clique. Do women try to integrate into this social world or develop a separate, parallel world for networking?

Jordan: Both. I take clients golfing. But it’s easier for men to go out after work with a lot of male clients and get drunk or smoke cigars and just have a good time. I’m not comfortable doing that.

Bellandi: Well, they just don’t invite the women. And also, what are their wives going to say? “I went out to dinner with Robin three times in the last month.” “Sure you did, honey.” I mean, you know?

Jordan: You always end up with that sexual thing. It’s very annoying.

Delgado: I didn’t grow up out here, so it’s very difficult for me when you hit on those issues. I think that you just try different avenues to entertain clients.

Bellandi: Money is money. If you want to do a deal, aside from what college you went to, the developers are going to seek out who has the money.

Meyer: I agree with Ellen. If you perform time and time again, you get that reputation and people seek you out.

LABJ: Do you ever use being a woman to your advantage?

Delgado: Of course. I’m not talking in a sexual way, but the same way any person with an outgoing personality uses that trait, or the fact you understand numbers. It’s just part of who you are. I’m intuitive. I can tell if things aren’t going well right away or if someone’s tense because I’m telling them something they don’t want to hear.

Meyer: It’s also the guy ego. They have to state their position and women can weave in and out a little easier. You can express your opinion but you don’t have to be as ego-driven, I think. You’re softer and can consolidate opinions and get a consensus.

Bellandi: I think the worst thing you can do as a woman is act like a man. I think men appreciate women in business that act like women.

Jordan: I don’t think about being a woman or not or how that’s playing into things. I don’t think I’ve ever not gotten business because I was a woman. When you’re dealing with institutions, if their job is on the line, they want to go with a national company. There’s no way if you’re male or female that you’re going to win with that.

LABJ: Once you get a sense that this guy doesn’t want to deal with a woman and this deal is in jeopardy, at that point do you just bail out and bring in a male counterpart?

Goodman: I don’t even get the deal. But what I do is cold call relationships, companies or people, and keep that relationship going. There are some people I’ll get deals from and some I won’t, and I never want to piss anybody off because you never know where they’re going to wind up.

Bellandi: If I sense that, I’ll bring in a male counterpart and they can talk about whatever they’re going to talk about. As long as the deal gets done, I’m happy. I come out the same.

Jordan: On the other side, though, I’ve always resented it when you have a man trying to get business and he’s got a certain client and all of a sudden he’s looking around the company for a woman who looks really hot and have her just sit there. I’ve been in situations like that where this one individual would bring in this other woman just to be in the room.

Delgado: A lot of times a short skirt will sell.

Jordan: But they do know why you’re doing it and the woman they’re bringing in knows why she’s there and that’s an awkward position, I’m sure, to be in. You’re on display and have nothing to say. You’re sitting there smiling and trying to look cute. It’s very demeaning.

LABJ: What about body language, the guys talking directly to the other guys?

Delgado: There’s a lot of the not making eye contact with you when you’re sitting at a meeting. The client will let you know that he wants to deal with the man because all he’s looking at is the man.

Bellandi: And Kathy, would you get some coffee for us please? (laughter).